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Old 04-19-2004, 12:03 PM   #11
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Pagan, Seriously dude.
Five years ago Bush had not gone insane.
Your promise was to a commander and chief of Honor.
This man has dishonored us all AND the promise you made.
I'd say that makes your promise NULL and void.
The ratio of innocent people dead has already gone far beyond the number of actual intended targets.
My father made the choice to kill innocent people in Vietnam for a cause, which he knew, was wrong.
Now he is a completely fucked up piece of shit who works at Wal-Mart and rides a bike with a plastic milk crate duct taped onto the handlebars.
He spent 15 years fucking up me and my mom on a daily basis because of all that fucked up shit in his head from all the killing.
He tried to kill ME.
That was from only TWO YEARS in Vietnam.
Eventually he had to get himself chemically labodamised so he would remain docile enough to remain in society.

You shuld not have to die or kill for that asshole.
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Old 04-19-2004, 12:48 PM   #12
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Powel had put it best I think when he likened this situation to pottery barn rules: we broke it, we bought it.

Iraq is a monumental waste of resources, money, and most of all, lives. Overeager neo-conservatives who when no WMDs were found and no link to al Queda were found, cliaim that it's now done for the benefit of the Iraqi people. Talk about entitlement. They don't want free healthcare for their own countryman, but they're all for "liberating" foreigners.

However, I'm not sure I can really stand behind those soldiers. They signed up for the military. You give up a lot of your rights when you do that, and no one, especially not the military, is claiming otherwise when you sign on that dotted line. When you join an army, the chances that you could be called upon to fire upon someone or to take fire is implied.

If they were ordered to kill innocent civilians and refused that order, that'd be one thing. Such an order would violate several sections of the military uniform code, and any soldier would be well within their rights to refuse.

However, refusing to serve in general is another mater. Soldiers don't get to pick and choose their battles. That's what soliders are. If you don't agree with that, you shouldn't become a soldier.

So I don't know.
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Old 04-19-2004, 12:51 PM   #13
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That is true, quite often its hard to tell which people are actualy against killing and which people just don't like the idea of risking their lives....not saying which this is but there is always that risk when dealing with this situation.

Glad someone pointed out the lot less rights thing though, most people don't think or realize how much fewer rights we actualy have.

"there is no good, there is no evil, there is only flesh and the patterns to which we submit it"
~~Pin Head, Hell-raiser 3
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Old 04-19-2004, 12:54 PM   #14
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Ya i feel the same way tony

Now if the draft starts up again i would support people leaving and going to canada
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Old 04-19-2004, 12:57 PM   #15
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I agree with that. Draft=bad. Go Canada.
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Old 04-19-2004, 01:08 PM   #16
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although i heard apparently the US is working with canada to have them ban draft dodgers

so if they really do reinstate it in 2005 then your best bet is mexico... which really isnt as nice as canada
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Old 04-19-2004, 01:11 PM   #17
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I'm too old for the draft now I think. Also, I've got Europe.
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Old 04-19-2004, 03:40 PM   #18
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That post and the death penality thing is more meant for watch standing purposes...it can be used for the purpose but usualy won't....manning your post and leaving your appointed station of duty aren't always they same though they can be combined if they really want to hose you

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Old 04-19-2004, 03:45 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fulcrum9
A Samuri's suicide was only to save honor in death because thay had done something too dishonorable.
Even then it was an assisted suicide.
Actually, just to throw a little accuracy in on this...Seppuku was considered an honorable way to die. It was committed for countless reasons. One was being dishonorable, as you said, another letting your lord fall in battle...the list can go on. It was suicide but it was considered a redemption of honor. A warriors way to die. It was considered a brave and sometimes even noble act, a statement if you will. It was more often than not done to save their honor completely. And a "second" was only there in case the suicide went bad...it was not always "assisted". The second was there to deliver a killing blow if the cut did not kill honorably and to allow a quick, painless death.

Sorry to rant, but when history is misrepresented I get ornery.

The effort of using machines to mimic the human mind has always struck me as rather silly. I would rather use them to mimic something better.
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Old 04-19-2004, 03:57 PM   #20
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Hm, I think he's touched on the subject of the samurai and the difference between seppuku (切腹 ?... not sure if that'll come across) and suicides among our armed forces in Iraq. The former was, ideally, a conscious choice arising from their (somewhat twisted-sounding, imo) code of honor. The latter is more likely to be an act born of desperation, depression, or perhaps some other mental illness. One might call that weak but I prefer not to judge those people so harshly. Maybe they weren't great warriors but what difference does that make in an unjust war? That's how I see the situation anyway and I know that's a rather contentious subject. They probably needed some psychiatric help and didn't receive it. They probably shouldn't have been in a war to begin with. Maybe they shouldn't have enlisted, maybe the military should have done something different. I don't know... Should the families of suicides feel worse than the families of those K.I.A.? Why the heck are our troops occupying Iraq, again? Will all these deaths be meaningless?
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